19 replies to this topic

[2Unkown2Know]

So, at my university, there was a Comic Symposium that discusses cultural, international and interdisciplinary perspectives with the comic/cartoon industry. Huge-named speakers, from both North American, European, and Asian continents were present, lectured about the evolution of comics in their respective regions. (Joe Sacco, Gilbert Hernandez, Peggy Burns, to name a few off the top of my head. I remember one of the keynote speakers even brought along the editor(?) for Scott Pilgrim in tow..)

What I have for discussion is from what one of the speakers had to say. Frenchy Lunning, currently a Professor of Liberal Arts at the Minneapolis College of Art and Design, and co-founder of the anual workshop "SGMS: Schoolgirls and Mobilesuits: Culture and Creation in Manga and Anime," lectured about the role of women that is seeping into Asian cultures originally through manga. I'll be paraphrasing from what notes I took (a good page and a half).

(By the way, Proffessor Lunning is a woman herself, in case you're wondering.)

I'll be structuring it through the form of Q&A:
- how did the idea of "shoujo" (「しょうじょ」) manifest itself in the portrayal of femininity?
Indeed, why is there this genre of manga all to itself? Of big sparkly bubbly eyes, of roses and floral expression in panels, of narration through the point of view of the heroine, or of frilly "gothic" - actually Victorian era - dresses? And why, or how, has this idea of femininity replaced the image of the woman in a kimono? Was not she an ideal woman too?
Prof. Lunning explains that this whole psyche is a fetishization of women. At the base level, that women are objects - and to the deeper level, of women as an idea. We adore the idea of the perfect/virtuous woman, and not the woman herself. In reaction to this, women that have conformed to this idea achieve a certain kind of power. Ideals of innocence, cuteness, and girlyness is paradoxical - the woman, though acting or appearing childish, is actually doing so out of sexuality (there is sexuality in the non-sexual). Nowadays, you can see how this has permeated into many Asian countries, and not just Japan. Why is it that women, regardless of age, act the way they do in society? You know you've met or experienced this before - married women giggling like High School girls, pretension of aloofness, etc. Prof. Lunning is not saying that their doing so is an act of total conformity, but rather, it has seeped into societal norms without consciousness of it.

- how does the idea of "Lolita," or these gothic or steampunk dresses, become relevant to the idea of femininity?
Especially in Japan, cosplay of white frilly dresses or maids or maid cafes are popular, when before, were looked down upon. To begin, why frilly and originally Victorian (late 19th century) dresses? Prof. Lunning explains that this seemingly childish and innocent appearance strongly emblemizes that ideal of the "pure" female. Not to mention "useless" or most "powerless" to male dominance - at the time, women were commodities, supportive of their husbands (only in the aristocracy anyway). All they did was dress and look fancy, and chat all day long. The maid too relies on the requisite of subordination and inferiority. Why all this in society, when it was first only in manga? Prof. Lunning insists that cosplay transcends gender and cultures, because the need to embody this idea is drag (noun). She uses the term "drag" because what people cosplay are not actual genders (not strictly male/female), but rather the hyperfemininity that is fetishized.

The last note I took was about how Freudian (unconscious, repression, etc.) all this sounds, as well as how ironic that something that originally began in manga has now seeped into the structures of society. (Because decades ago, nobody was cosplaying or thinking about women in frilly dresses, surely.)

And in conjunction, what of the hypermasculinity in Western comics? Superheroes and tights?

When I think of it, many of the anime and comics I read nowadays have tropes to women, and none of them realistic. At even a surface level as an artist/cartoonist, I like to go for realism both in the drawing aspect as well as the depths of character. And I'm noticing that not as much attention is paid as compared to what pertains to this idea of "cute" (or as Prof. Lunning uses, "Shoujo"), be it manga or anime. When did the need for big eyes come into play?

Well, I've done my part. If you've read this far, thank you, and I'd love to hear what any of you have to say. Commenting is strongly encouraged, be it flame or friendly post.

[StriderReimu]

hmm interesting
japan is a weird society
and sex sells
sexuality has consume the media in all ways today
and the whole idea of moe is sexuallity dressed as cute for me

[peregrin]

I'd agree. I also think that this sort of concept obviously applies to other forms of media. I guess I'm not really surprised to hear this because it doesn't seem nearly as outlandish as some other arguments about "hypersexuality" can be. I once had to read a paper about the "hypermasculinity" of Beethoven that indirectly shows the "femininity" of Schubert. It's a field called "gay musicology," and after that, arguments about the fetishization of subservience and innocence in anime makes so much sense by comparison that it hurts.

In short: I agree. I think I've even argued this same point in the 18+ Cafe in that thread about why anime girls are drawn the way they're drawn.

[TokyoTapez]

Wouldn't this simply be the animated or drawn version of a super model? The "perfection" that is impossible for the average girl to achieve yet some desperately strive for, and just another thing for the average guy to drool at. It's clear that general society finds this appealing and the artists are trying to make a quick buck out of this idea or hoping they achieve the next big "shoujo". As for the frills, I would think people find this appealing because of the whole innocence idea with generally sways toward the idea of virginity being a holy and should protected.

[peregrin]

TokyoTapez, on 09 October 2011 - 04:05 AM, said:

Wouldn't this simply be the animated or drawn version of a super model? The "perfection" that is impossible for the average girl to achieve yet some desperately strive for, and just another thing for the average guy to drool at. It's clear that general society finds this appealing and the artists are trying to make a quick buck out of this idea or hoping they achieve the next big "shoujo". As for the frills, I would think people find this appealing because of the whole innocence idea with generally sways toward the idea of virginity being a holy and should protected.

I think it's more about the idea that the female body isn't actually what's being fetishized. Here, we're talking more about mannerisms. Behavioral quirks, submissive personalities - things that are "feminine" in societal context only. It's obvious why anime girls with big boobs would be popular, but why would moe be the phenomenon it is without some sort of disconnect between the woman as an object and the woman as a concept? I think that's really what this is pointing out: the idea that in anime the fetishization of women is often less about objectifying them (i.e. worshiping the female body as an object) and more about projecting a set of ideals onto them through their attire and behavior. To put it another way, it's not the big, sparkly eyes, the ribbons, and the bows themselves that serve as a fetish, but rather the sorts of concepts that they inherently project onto the character who has them.

[Super Saiyan Swagga]

This is actually a good read. Thanks op.

[TokyoTapez]

peregrin, on 09 October 2011 - 08:21 AM, said:

I think it's more about the idea that the female body isn't actually what's being fetishized. Here, we're talking more about mannerisms. Behavioral quirks, submissive personalities - things that are "feminine" in societal context only. It's obvious why anime girls with big boobs would be popular, but why would moe be the phenomenon it is without some sort of disconnect between the woman as an object and the woman as a concept? I think that's really what this is pointing out: the idea that in anime the fetishization of women is often less about objectifying them (i.e. worshiping the female body as an object) and more about projecting a set of ideals onto them through their attire and behavior. To put it another way, it's not the big, sparkly eyes, the ribbons, and the bows themselves that serve as a fetish, but rather the sorts of concepts that they inherently project onto the character who has them.

Well there's plenty of those fetshes going around, yandere and tsundere for example. It just so happens people prefer shoujo more; as for why, it's entirely over my head as I don't like the idea all too much (says the guy with the gothic lolita style Alice).

[2Unkown2Know]

I'm tempted to believe that "tsundere," "yandere," and all sorts of behaviour are tropes that also stem from the original fetishization of women as an idea. It's like forcing women to behave only in certain types and nothing else. As said, the degree to which this applies is as deep as the unconscious level - some traits some women have resemble this trope or that trope without their knowing.

For example, notice how there's always a female character that is brimming with confidence that always seems to go "HOHOHOHOHOHO," the submissive quiet types (often wearing glasses) who are naive to a fault and unrealistic, and the seemingly "perfect" charming girl who, also unrealistic, aces grades, has all the friends, etc. How come these are the only characters you see nowadays? It shouldn't be surprising then that some of it rubs off on societal values - hence women taking after this idea of "cute"/"shoujo" femininity.

Not just Japan - take Thailand, where I was raised for example. "Feminine" attributes of social conversation involve many traits that revolve around their being cute. How they choose to say goodbye, idiosyncrasies, pose for a camera, say hi to friends, etc. are charged with this "need" for being cute. Evidently, this 'cuteness' (as Prof. Lunning calls "shoujo") is reinforced in Asian societies because it resembles the idea of a woman without power, without agency.

I guess, try observing how girls behave, regardless of what country you're in. Do you think their behaviour is charged with the society's ideal behaviour for women, or are they completely neutral? (Actually, is complete neutrality even possible? There's a thought) And if so, do you think they're conscious of it?

Especially since I'm studying abroad doing a degree in the States, behaviour for women is a lot different. I seem to notice that there are some traits (way they talk, pronounce words, look at you, etc.) that is commonly shared between blonde women around my age. While we might think it seems or sounds fake/superficial/unrealistic, they on the other hand, are unconscious of it.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, it just hit me. Think of the Disney Princesses - especially the earliest ones like Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and Snow White.

DubbalDeal, on 09 October 2011 - 09:56 AM, said:

This is actually a good read. Thanks op.

Thank you

[peregrin]

^ I agree completely. As a side note: the same behavioral traits can be pinned on men as well. After all, "manliness" is just as much a social construct as "femininity."

[peregrin]

Lishy, on 10 October 2011 - 07:09 AM, said:

Pretty interesting read. But I have to say that I think it is the westernization of Japan which has sparked interest in maids and frills.

Anime in the west in and itself is a very interesting subject as well.

But the interest in maids and frills persists in Western culture as a fetish. So it's really the same thing, ultimately. It's not the origin that matters, it's more just the fact that it's there.

[Jeremytroid]

I'm tired, so this may or may not make sense and may or may not have any truth to it.

Peer pressure is around for most of everyone's life. I think that these new styles/fetishes/whatevers are just part of peer pressure and cultural expectancy. Let's let the reason why the moe boom started slide for the rest of my idea.

People are reading moe manga and watching moe anime. The girls will pick up on it, and try to fit that style because they think that it will make them more popular. Then, the readers (who have seen how the moe girl acts in the manga) will start to expect the girls to act the part as well. Everyone involved is trying to fit in with the new style, and because it's all around you, that's why it seems so natural.

Now that may have seemed a bit patronizing, and I'm not saying that all men are controlling and that the women are all blindly following them. It was intended as a general statement to sort of sum everything up. I don't mean that offensively is what I'm getting at >.>

Off to bed with me now...



P.S. I like frillies because they're pretty in the wind :3

[Keine Kamishirasawa]

Many Westerners are critical of the fetishization of women in asian culture without being conscious of their own.

[peregrin]

Keine Kamishirasawa, on 06 November 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Many Westerners are critical of the fetishization of women in asian culture without being conscious of their own.

I've actually encountered more who are critical of the fetishization of women in Western culture given that most "Westerners" concern themselves with their own culture before casting their nets to other cultures. Hell, I even pointed out that the maids and frills fetish is originally Western (and definitely persists in Western culture as well as Asian culture). So... yeah, I disagree with this post and question its relevance to the discussion at hand.

[DearEngineer]

Lishy, on 07 November 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

Isn't the the unholy trinity of western hoebags= Maids, Police, and Nurses?

Made my day. I think it's actually nuns, police, nurses.

[Keine Kamishirasawa]

DearEngineer, on 08 November 2011 - 02:56 AM, said:

Made my day. I think it's actually nuns, police, nurses.

As a guy who frequents streaming porn sites a lot, I think its teachers, nurses and babysitters. I certainly never saw police or maid porn in westerns porn

[peregrin]

Keine Kamishirasawa, on 18 November 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

As a guy who frequents streaming porn sites a lot, I think its teachers, nurses and babysitters. I certainly never saw police or maid porn in westerns porn

Oh no, there's a lot of maid/police porn. At least, that's what my, uh... friend told me. Yeah. My friend.

[the void]

its strange............watching porn....a ton of porn......so much porn*shivers*....has actually led me to that very conclusion
which is kinda weird. and no, im not joking about that

[72ush]

south korea is a lot japan, like idols having to endure perfect public image and fetishization, although not to japan's extent in fetishization but more extreme in the idol sense. I'm sure every1 here has at least heard of kpop idols getting popular, theres a music video with GG/SNSD at 60+ million views fck

home country, y u so generic pop music