247 replies to this topic

[Punky]

So what do you guys think about people who aren't comfortable with their sex/gender? As a tomboy, I think I can relate sometimes since some of the problems they have to deal with I have trouble accepting as well. I'm not transgender myself, but people who think that girls are only good for sex and being in the kitchen seriously bother me. I can understand why a female would rather be a male in this aspect. Another thing would be inequality among the sexes that's still prevalent in today's society and the higher expectations females are expected to meet. Of course, I know guys have their own fair share of problems to deal with as well, but yeah I just figured it'd be something worth discussing. If anything, maybe I could learn more about why I guy would rather be a girl since I never really understood any of the perks that would come along with it to be honest.

this thread was totally not inspired by amjzz's posts

[Moonrise]

A friend of mine is transgendered. Certainly some different challenges she has to face because her family immigrated here and apparently wants so desperately to fit in with regular culture that they pretty much shunned her completely and do everything they can to force her to change. I don't know everything but she said she's been this way ever since youth so it's not really something her family can change. (boy->girl, for those unsure of what I'm referring to. It's respectful to refer to transgendered individuals by the sex they identify themselves as.)

In any case, it's not that she wishes to be a girl, just that she wholly identifies herself as one and never has identified herself as a male since childhood. I think this is the case for some but not all.

[Mikhael]

I often have trouble figuring out my own identity. I'd rather blame the way social norms work than blame the way I am. I don't feel masculine or strong, and look in the mirror similar to how I feel. Though I'm not sure about attributing this to gender or sex, because I hate gender stereotypes anyway. Just a sense of physical humility wherever I go.

Sexually/Relationship speaking I'm submissive. I don't make a lot of sense out of the complete necessity for males to be on top in a relationship or always pulling the strings.

[Punky]

I definitely believe it arises from the construct of the society, similar to how racism works. I don't believe they were "born" with it per say. Rather, I believe that the pressure from society to conform to certain gender roles leave those who don't fit the mold yearning to be in a state where they can be themselves freely without criticism. In this case, it ends up being the opposite sex. Of course, this is just my opinion.

[NegativeZeroZ]

Usually I think it's discrimination.

Both men and women face it equally in different areas. No matter which you are, it's no easier trying to convince those around you, especially those with sexist views, that you don't fit the stereotypes. I, for one, don't appreciate society telling me how I should behave, especially when double standards are involved. I remain the gender I was born with because I don't care what society thinks. The people who do need to feel like they fit in will sometimes rather change their gender than change their behavior, because that's just who they are, and I think that's more important.

Quoth the Greeks, "Know thyself."

[Punky]

NegativeZeroZ, on 09 April 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

Usually I think it's discrimination.

Both men and women face it equally in different areas. No matter which you are, it's no easier trying to convince those around you, especially those with sexist views, that you don't fit the stereotypes. I, for one, don't appreciate society telling me how I should behave, especially when double standards are involved. I remain the gender I was born with because I don't care what society thinks. The people who do need to feel like they fit in will sometimes rather change their gender than change their behavior, because that's just who they are, and I think that's more important.

Quoth the Greeks, "Know thyself."

Yeah, that's basically what I think.

[Saiyu]

hmm woman should get out of the kitchen i prefer cooking , but thats off topic. really its truly truly outragous how ppl make that claim though many men are chefs and being a guy who loves to cook i find that not only insulting to women but to men as well since its like saying men cant cook. stereo types will always be around cuz society's norm represented by celeb's the media and most others around us say we have to be like this or like that. and taunted if we arent

example being
woman must all look like super models . this is disgusting really since it makes girls uncomphy im sure

men have to be suave ppl who rip their shirts off with their muscles this is also a pain.

but what can u do when the world is alerady like this its not easy to change and prob wont ever be

transgenders also have it hard not able to figure out which is which and who they are. scared if ppl found out theyd be ridiculed or hurt . it really would sadden me if it ended up like that cuz ppl are still ppl for who they are not how they look.

sorry i keep rambling.

im quite feminime aswell my friends know that ^^ but im no transgender. thoughts of being a girl ofcourse cross my mind on how my life would be like but id riether stay a guy cuz im still me.


i apoligize in advance for the mess of text

[Punky]

Saiyu, on 09 April 2011 - 06:04 AM, said:

hmm woman should get out of the kitchen i prefer cooking , but thats off topic. really its truly truly outragous how ppl make that claim though many men are chefs and being a guy who loves to cook i find that not only insulting to women but to men as well since its like saying men cant cook. stereo types will always be around cuz society's norm represented by celeb's the media and most others around us say we have to be like this or like that. and taunted if we arent

example being
woman must all look like super models . this is disgusting really since it makes girls uncomphy im sure

men have to be suave ppl who rip their shirts off with their muscles this is also a pain.

but what can u do when the world is alerady like this its not easy to change and prob wont ever be

transgenders also have it hard not able to figure out which is which and who they are. scared if ppl found out theyd be ridiculed or hurt . it really would sadden me if it ended up like that cuz ppl are still ppl for who they are not how they look.

sorry i keep rambling.

im quite feminime aswell my friends know that ^^ but im no transgender. thoughts of being a girl ofcourse cross my mind on how my life would be like but id riether stay a guy cuz im still me.


i apoligize in advance for the mess of text

Nah, you made good points. I am decent at cooking but only because my mom forced me to learn due to her "you'll have to learn to cook for your husband when you're older" lecture :/

[Malthael]

Saiyu, on 09 April 2011 - 06:04 AM, said:

hmm woman should get out of the kitchen i prefer cooking , but thats off topic. really its truly truly outragous how ppl make that claim though many men are chefs and being a guy who loves to cook i find that not only insulting to women but to men as well since its like saying men cant cook. stereo types will always be around cuz society's norm represented by celeb's the media and most others around us say we have to be like this or like that. and taunted if we arent

Aye, I have to agree there. I love to cook and sew and get grief from my friends and family all the time for it.

It makes me wonder sometimes why I was born a guy, but then what about all the "guy" stuff I like to do like watch football, hunt and fish?

[NegativeZeroZ]

Saiyu, on 09 April 2011 - 06:04 AM, said:

hmm woman should get out of the kitchen i prefer cooking , but thats off topic. really its truly truly outragous how ppl make that claim though many men are chefs and being a guy who loves to cook i find that not only insulting to women but to men as well since its like saying men cant cook.

Actually, this is the first thing to come up in a discussion of double standards.

"Women should cook in the home, but men who cook are professional chefs."

There are plenty of things I'll have to learn by myself to do, because my traditional upbringing assumes "oh, your spouse will do that for you when you get married." What about before...

[Punky]

Triggerdx, on 09 April 2011 - 06:16 AM, said:

Aye, I have to agree there. I love to cook and sew and get grief from my friends and family all the time for it.

It makes me wonder sometimes why I was born a guy, but then what about all the "guy" stuff I like to do like watch football, hunt and fish?

Yeah, and when you think about it, aside from house-related things, pretty much everything else is dominated by guys. It kinda sucks for me as a girl, since most of the stuff I'm into is considered "guy" stuff and I get shit about that all the time as well.

[Saiyu]

LOL whats sad is i do all the cookingat my house. all the cleaning . if that truly is the womans job. who's ass do i shove this pole in cuz id rieter let my wife relax =w=.

[peregrin]

Mmmm, transexuality. A great example of why the dichotomies of gender and sexuality aren't natural.

[Moonrise]

I'm very talented at cooking and really I think that's one gender-distinction that has been changing with this generation. My cousin's fiancee (at least I think he finally proposed) is an excellent cook (far more diverse than I) and my cousin is terrible at cooking. Of course, the two of us (my cousin's fiancee and I) are both pretty masculine, really. We've both played sports growing up and he's a paramedic and I'm working on my engineering degree. Basic gender-discrimination isn't so much the issue I think as it is people thinking that there's severe abnormalities associated with someone that doesn't identify with their gender (particularly if they act upon it and go through with gender alteration).

In short, I think it's something where they don't really "fit in" with any other particular group of people as far as sexual orientation goes. There's still tension among homosexual and heterosexuals, and transgendered people don't seem to fit in comfortably with either group so considering they're the smallest of the divisions it makes them more "outsiders" than the others in the eyes of many.

[Punky]

Saiyu, on 09 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

LOL whats sad is i do all the cookingat my house. all the cleaning . if that truly is the womans job. who's ass do i shove this pole in cuz id rieter let my wife relax =w=.

You're a good man, Sai :3

Moonrise, on 09 April 2011 - 06:42 AM, said:

I'm very talented at cooking and really I think that's one gender-distinction that has been changing with this generation. My cousin's fiancee (at least I think he finally proposed) is an excellent cook (far more diverse than I) and my cousin is terrible at cooking. Of course, the two of us (my cousin's fiancee and I) are both pretty masculine, really. We've both played sports growing up and he's a paramedic and I'm working on my engineering degree. Basic gender-discrimination isn't so much the issue I think as it is people thinking that there's severe abnormalities associated with someone that doesn't identify with their gender (particularly if they act upon it and go through with gender alteration).

In short, I think it's something where they don't really "fit in" with any other particular group of people as far as sexual orientation goes. There's still tension among homosexual and heterosexuals, and transgendered people don't seem to fit in comfortably with either group so considering they're the smallest of the divisions it makes them more "outsiders" than the others in the eyes of many.

The thing is though, the whole idea of "gender roles" is created by society. Of course, there's a difference in sexes, but when it comes to determining how we act based on that, I don't believe that something people were born with. It's like how little boys are known to dress in female clothes at times because they don't know any better. Really, it's not until people tell us that we're different and raise us to be different that we start to think this way. This can be supported by the lack in the amount of transgenders in societies where gender roles are either interchangeable or are almost completely nonexistent(like those people in India, though I forgot their name).

[Saiyu]

ty punky =w= ive always beleived the one u care for most must be treated as well as you can provide

[peregrin]

RailGunner, on 09 April 2011 - 06:59 AM, said:

"gender roles"

Have you been reading Judith Butler?

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

I read *some* of this for a rhetoric class back in the day and it actually forays into the whole issue of transexuality in some detail. It's a bit hard to read (at least for me), but I think you might be interested in taking a look if you haven't already.

[Moonrise]

Well gender roles may be assigned that way but I was just pointing out that the gender "role" of cooking has started to change a bit to where it's not really gender-specific anymore.

As for my friend, she was brought up hanging out around boys, playing videogames and other stuff, but I suppose she said she always felt like a woman inside and as a result has acted as one since childhood. Of course you may ask "but what defines a woman?" and while it's really hard to say what true differences exist as far as emotions and mentality, there are obvious physiological differences between men and women that may play into it (hormones in particular). That said, there is some research into the differences in brain functions of men and women and while the sample sizes are small there has been some evidence that women have a smaller stria terminalis than men (basically, the part of the brain that controls sexual behavior). Transgendered individuals (male -> female) have been shown to have a stria terminalis similar to a woman's instead of a man's, which may be a cause for the gender identification issues.

Also worth noting is that if you have a very small sample size (such as a small, closed society), there is going to be a lack in transgendered people purely because of numbers if not anything else.

[Kizeki]

Saiyu, on 09 April 2011 - 06:04 AM, said:

but what can u do when the world is alerady like this its not easy to change and prob wont ever be

Not necesarily. The world was not like this 50 years ago and will not be like this in another 50 years. Society changes in a whim. Only its deepeds aspects take long to change, but even they are not static. It's just that we're seemly spiraling downward instead of advancing sometimes

Saiyu, on 09 April 2011 - 06:04 AM, said:

transgenders also have it hard not able to figure out which is which and who they are. scared if ppl found out theyd be ridiculed or hurt . it really would sadden me if it ended up like that cuz ppl are still ppl for who they are not how they look.

I posted this on tMS (lolamjzzthread), but I think the problem with most transgenders is they try to fit in and be accepted. It sucks and it's unfair that society is narrow-minded and can only accept things that go by the norm, but seeking acceptance for your entire life is never the answer. Learn to be yourself, no matter who that self is


Point and case, we should realize how dumb our entire labeling system is and drop gender stereotypes entirely (actually all stereotypes, but those are for a different debate). And I mean entirely. I don't even want to hear dresses are for girls. All of it, be gone. There's no point in it existing whatsoever. It only limits our personalities. If yer a guy ye must like sports, if yer a girl ye must liek fashion. Why so? Don't pick my tastes before I'm even born. While the final desicion IS in you, all the time society spends telling you how you're supposed to behave based on your gender does affect how your personality develops. So in a way, this only limits ourselves and who we are. GJ system

I would be more elaborate on my point but it's 4:30 am and I've written this at least a hundred times on this forum alone

[NegativeZeroZ]

From what I've learned in sociology and from personal experience, when dealing with circles of people with higher education and greater maturity, there's a lot less discrimination, and general intolerance.

Personally speaking, androgyny is the ideal solution. Thing is, the feminist movement itself is a victim of double standards. "Women can work, as long as they still take care of the kids," and men still don't do chores associated with women. If men can be liberated from gender roles in the same way, things will be a lot better, IMHO. It's a shame that men feel restricted to their gender roles, even now, because of the social stigma.