92 replies to this topic

[nixius86]

Well I don't have a whole lot of deep insight to say on this I guess, but I love the style... regardless of fetishes or whatever you may call it. A big part of my love for 2D drawings is that it is escapism, you can dwell on how beautiful the picture is drawn or whatever parts you may

Isn't a lot of it also the disconnect between the real world? There is nothing to worry about and you can have your fantasy world in your mind and stuff, project your own thoughts into the picture/video and give your own take on it - without having to worry about any repercussions or feeling it's wrong.

For me, staring at a beautiful (real) women (that isn't modelling for the sake of being looked at) I feel... disrespectful on some levels. And 2D isn't 'real' but with 2D it doesn't matter .

Personally you can't compare fantasy to real life, real life is what you need to experience. 2D is a valid art form and a great form of escapism but it can't replace real people and real interactions, they are important .

[Master Tasuke]

nixius86, on 20 June 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

Well I don't have a whole lot of deep insight to say on this I guess, but I love the style... regardless of fetishes or whatever you may call it. A big part of my love for 2D drawings is that it is escapism, you can dwell on how beautiful the picture is drawn or whatever parts you may

Isn't a lot of it also the disconnect between the real world? There is nothing to worry about and you can have your fantasy world in your mind and stuff, project your own thoughts into the picture/video and give your own take on it - without having to worry about any repercussions or feeling it's wrong.

For me, staring at a beautiful (real) women (that isn't modelling for the sake of being looked at) I feel... disrespectful on some levels. And 2D isn't 'real' but with 2D it doesn't matter .

Personally you can't compare fantasy to real life, real life is what you need to experience. 2D is a valid art form and a great form of escapism but it can't replace real people and real interactions, they are important .

EXACTLY.

Sakuyuko, on 19 June 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

no, what you have goes a little bit too much beyond that
there is liking 2D stuff and then there's obsessing over it and you take it even further, friend

the hell i am.

it's all a fun fantasy, a diversion from the humdrum of the Real World. hardly a unique/unusual situation.
i'm taking my time, in the real world, handling it as i can, one step at a time.

"Mikuru Asahina" here is my personal little fantasy woman in the mean, helping me along.
a unique little angel that makes me feel so very happy whenever i gaze upon her darling little face.

now please tell me exactly what harm that happens to pose unto you, or anyone else on this particular forum?

peregrin, on 19 June 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

Well, it's not the obsession that's the issue, it's the self-aware preference for what is clearly a generalized and chauvinistic take on femininity.

That's actually my biggest problem with the whole "2D vs. 3D" issue. 2D is often defended as being ideal in a variety of ways, but I stand by what I said about its being an amalgamation of fetishes about both behavior and appearance. I can guarantee you that the best people in life, friends or partners, will have substantially more depth to their character than any "2D" ever could. I mean, that's the beauty of reality: you can't understand it. I could spend my life idolizing the tsundere archetype, but when it comes down to it it's one of the most boring things to do. Why would I want to devote my life to something I understand? Where's the fun in that? Well, that plus the one-way nature of fantasy is incredibly depressing after extended periods of time. Again, to quote Dumbledore:

i've no problem with Reality. nor i've any problem with learning and exploring the unknown.

i simply have a primitive set of personal ideals in regards to Femininity.

if you happen to take excessive issue with that fact, that is your prerogative,
as it is mine to feel the way i happen to in regards to the "Fairer Sex"

Pedro The Hutt, on 20 June 2011 - 02:20 AM, said:

Well, but you see, thanks to the joys of ten years of using internet forums and chat clients, I know first hand that America has plenty of girls who have "an innocence" (although that is a ~very~ subjective concept), common sense, decency, and lady like qualities. You just, y'know, need to get off your arse and go out to find them and have the delight of getting to know them.
It is rather harsh and demeaning to the women of America to think the vast majority of them are "whores". Not to mention a crude generalisation at best.

Good God, man!! i'm not saying that! you're putting words into my mouth!!

what i WAS/AM saying, is that in popular American culture, the general trappings of the cheap female whore seem to be
the most widely accepted, most popular/mainstream series of Fetishes of the feminine form to be found in mainstream American culture.

it's been precisely that way here in the U.S. for DECADES, as a matter of fact.

me, i DO NOT happen to share that set of popular fetishes, NOT AT ALL. and i only hope to make that as clear as i possibly can...

[Sakuyuko]

Master Tasuke, on 21 June 2011 - 03:05 AM, said:

the hell i am.

it's all a fun fantasy, a diversion from the humdrum of the Real World. hardly a unique/unusual situation.
i'm taking my time, in the real world, handling it as i can, one step at a time.

"Mikuru Asahina" here is my personal little fantasy woman in the mean, helping me along.
a unique little angel that makes me feel so very happy whenever i gaze upon her darling little face.

now please tell me exactly what harm that happens to pose unto you, or anyone else on this particular forum?

you ain't gettin my point, son
my point is that you put a little show a little bit too much enthusiasm into a fictional character
you treat her like a real woman and that's baaad

[Master Tasuke]

Sakuyuko, on 21 June 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

you ain't gettin my point, son
my point is that you put a little show a little bit too much enthusiasm into a fictional character
you treat her like a real woman and that's baaad

it ain't no different to me than the "little bit too much enthusiasm" that current teeny-boppers
put into the almighty JUSTIN BIEBER, who, for all intents and purposes, is just as fictional as Mikuru Asahina.

i won't even get into BIEBER's fictional vocal talent (IMHO) that's an argument for another, well, Argument.

i'm just saying that Mikuru-chan is the woman that i'd LOVE to have, in an IDEAL world.

i HAVE my REASONS why i have yet to take part in a real life relationship.
i'd prefer not to get into to that long, drawn out ten-year story, but if you continue to insist...

[Sakuyuko]

Master Tasuke, on 21 June 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

it ain't no different to me than the "little bit too much enthusiasm" that current teeny-boppers
put into the almighty JUSTIN BIEBER, who, for all intents and purposes, is just as fictional as Mikuru Asahina.

i won't even get into BIEBER's fictional vocal talent (IMHO) that's an argument for another, well, Argument.

i'm just saying that Mikuru-chan is the woman that i'd LOVE to have, in an IDEAL world.

i HAVE my REASONS why i have yet to take part in a real life relationship.
i'd prefer not to get into to that long, drawn out ten-year story, but if you continue to insist...

if your ideal woman is a useless moeblob then you ain't readty for a real woman, son

[Master Tasuke]

Sakuyuko, on 21 June 2011 - 07:18 PM, said:

if your ideal woman is a useless moeblob then you ain't readty for a real woman, son

there is more, MUCH more to her than that, at least in my own mind.

it is obvious that we are not meant to come to a mutual understanding here,
so what say we shake hands, agree to disagree, and be on our respective ways?

[Sakuyuko]

Master Tasuke, on 21 June 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

there is more, MUCH more to her than that, at least in my own mind.

it is obvious that we are not meant to come to a mutual understanding here,
so what say we shake hands, agree to disagree, and be on our respective ways?

son
you don't want to understand me
fine by me, it's your life, not my problem what you do with it

[Master Tasuke]

Sakuyuko, on 21 June 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

son
you don't want to understand me
fine by me, it's your life, not my problem what you do with it

i understand you PERFECTLY. i am NOT STUPID.

i'd just prefer not to turn this thread into a stupid flame war, is all.
you have your POV, as i do my own. let's please end this before we end up
adding several pages to this thread, going 'round in circles...

[Jatts]

At least fall in love with a character that has more..... depth. Not just "Uguuu~"

[peregrin]

Master Tasuke, on 21 June 2011 - 03:05 AM, said:

i've no problem with Reality. nor i've any problem with learning and exploring the unknown.

i simply have a primitive set of personal ideals in regards to Femininity.

if you happen to take excessive issue with that fact, that is your prerogative,
as it is mine to feel the way i happen to in regards to the "Fairer Sex"

See, the problem is that you establish a set of ideals for femininity rather than a set of ideals for what you are attracted to. It's one thing to admit that you are attracted to stereotypical and archaic forms of femininity, but it's another thing to start labeling these forms as perfect and speak of all women as though they fall under the purview of these ideals. I mean, it's kind of stupid, but it's largely just an issue with rhetoric. Personally I don't care what you choose to do in your free time. But as soon as you start posting about it, it becomes my business. It's a bit of a crapshoot any time you post given that it can either be accepted or not accepted. Clearly the things you've been posting have not been accepted by a lot of people, potentially for various reasons. But rather than ignore these reasons, maybe it would be better to ask "why?" Why does everyone seem so opposed to the idolization of a fictional character despite the fact that all of us clearly have ideals with regards to attractiveness and the like?

All I really ask, though, is that you understand that it's not really OK to play the whole "fairer sex" bit and expect people to accept it. It's reminiscent of a messy history of gender discrimination and it kind of hits a nerve, y'know? Abandoning those ideals is something that a large part of society has been trying to do for years in the name of equality, and the fact that you somewhat cavalierly refuse to do so seems antagonistic. Well, that and I still stand by what I said earlier about objectification.

What I like about this discussion, though, is that it's actually very relevant to this topic. In a sense, you are someone who truly likes "drawn chicks" in some sense of the word. Or rather, you are defending a position that accepts being attracted to fantasy. So I propose that we start this discussion over and take a more debate-like approach with well-defined and reasoned cases for and against this attraction to fiction and any implications it carries.

[Pedro The Hutt]

I think what people are trying to get across is you can't have a meaningful and/or interactive and/or mutual relationship with a piece of plastic or a set of pixels. Which is a very rewarding thing to have once you manage to secure one, if you have to go through some effort for it it'll often be even more rewarding. And take our word for it that in a decade from now your need for something real will most likely be far greater than it is now.

[Zephiel]

Pedro The Hutt, on 21 June 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

And take our word for it that in a decade from now your need for something real will most likely be far greater than it is now.

Or sooner in my case, gotta admit that I've been pining for a relationship a lot in the past few months (and yes, never had a girlfriend in my life so that probably doesn't help matters).

But yeah, while I can appreciate a good fantasy, as much as it's possible to get lost in them, nothing will beat reality, in my opinion at least. Still, so long as distinctions between the real and the fantasy are drawn, I don't see a real issue with dabbling in the later, though the real will always be what we strive for, or myself at least.

[Master Tasuke]

Pedro The Hutt, on 21 June 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

I think what people are trying to get across is you can't have a meaningful and/or interactive and/or mutual relationship with a piece of plastic or a set of pixels. Which is a very rewarding thing to have once you manage to secure one, if you have to go through some effort for it it'll often be even more rewarding.

believe you-me, i'm only all too aware of the difference between fantasy and reality. i'm not QUITE a total nutcase, i'm just beginning to lean in that overall general direction...

Pedro The Hutt, on 21 June 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

take our word for it that in a decade from now your need for something real will most likely be far greater than it is now.

i understand.

heaven knows i ain't getting any younger here, and even though i'll be but a mere 30ys. exactly come next JAN.
i'm already starting to feel rather old...

[Purianite]

2d is drawn to someone's ideal. You can have unrealistically beautiful characters. In 3d, you get what you're born with, and there's a limit to what you can do... unless of course you want to use Photoshop on it.

Sure I want to find a nice 3d girl, but 2d is still nice to look at.

[Greator]

2D girls are like your ideal person. The one that you want to become your wife. but you couldn't coz its just a drawing.
Its like saying, " i want my waifu to look like this".

When you compare real girls and 2D girls, you'll notice that 2D is much perfect in terms of body line, and their genitals are always clean and cute.

And some...I mean SOME of guys didn't like the ugliness of real girls, maybe because the real girls that he encounter doesn't have the perfect girl attributes, like voice, attitude, body line etc.
So he turns to 2D girls which most of them have a perfect girl attributes.

2D are art. If you cant accept drawn chicks, you are art blind. Its like Mona Lisa or Piccaso, You would say "what the hell is good about that picasso doodles? It looks strange."
You know picasso's art worth thousands, and dont be surprised if an anime drawings worth millions. It's an art.

[Pedro The Hutt]

I'm pretty sure Picasso's art is worth millions and there's manga styled pics worth thousands. =p But anyhow, no one here is saying anime girls aren't art, but there is a difference between ~appreciating~ drawings or paintings of women, and pining over them and desperately wishing they were real so you could bang'em/have them call you onii-chan.

[peregrin]

Greator, on 23 June 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

2D girls are like your ideal person. The one that you want to become your wife. but you couldn't coz its just a drawing.
Its like saying, " i want my waifu to look like this".

When you compare real girls and 2D girls, you'll notice that 2D is much perfect in terms of body line, and their genitals are always clean and cute.

And some...I mean SOME of guys didn't like the ugliness of real girls, maybe because the real girls that he encounter doesn't have the perfect girl attributes, like voice, attitude, body line etc.
So he turns to 2D girls which most of them have a perfect girl attributes.

2D are art. If you cant accept drawn chicks, you are art blind. Its like Mona Lisa or Piccaso, You would say "what the hell is good about that picasso doodles? It looks strange."
You know picasso's art worth thousands, and dont be surprised if an anime drawings worth millions. It's an art.

Nonononononononononono. 2D isn't "perfect." In most cases, 2D is a gross exaggeration of traits that society has established as attractive, both in terms of appearance and personality. Again, I go back to my original comments in this thread about how the 2D phenomenon is about the fetishization of a select number of traits that goes beyond what these traits can accomplish in reality. The body lines of anime women, for example, are often so ridiculous as to be anatomically impossible. If you find that to be "perfect," that's your choice, but understand that it would be ridiculous to hold reality to those impossible standards.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Remember, Barbie wouldn't have enough room to fit all her intestines if she were a real person~

[nixius86]

Quote

But anyhow, no one here is saying anime girls aren't art, but there is a difference between ~appreciating~ drawings or paintings of women, and pining over them and desperately wishing they were real so you could bang'em/have them call you onii-chan.

This is what I was trying to say earlier but took about 4 paragraphs to say lol.